Excellent piece, Dennis. Your title sucked me in, because of course, I'm with you. I read the whole thing and was shocked to see my name at the end. Ha. Thanks for the mention. I'm not exactly a Calvinist, but besides that (and, honestly, including most of that) this all resonates deeply. Glad to have more brothers thinking and praying through the future of our churches.
I would add, even as a non-Catholic myself, that the movement needs to be Sacramental. We evangelicals have such a low view of the Eucharist, and have never really prioritized confession. Just those two things alone would breath such life into Evangelicalism.
And, above all, the movement needs to be Sacrificial. The coopting of Christianity for political interests has causes outsiders to view American Christians merely as a voting bloc. Overcoming this will require that we lay ourselves, our quest for power and control, and our even our claim to whatever rights we have, down, so long as these things hinder our witness.
I really like your comment. I think that the root issue underlying our need for the charismatic is really a need to live an "enchanted world" which requires sacramentalism as well.
Wonderful article. I'm not Reformed, though I agree with the aspect of Reformed theology this article highlighted, and all the rest of this is spot on. Though I wonder what a "liturgical, Charismatic" Baptist would look like, LOL.
I hear pastors constantly praising and quoting Whitfield and Edwards without ever noting that they both owned slaves and Whitefield advocated for the practice. It’s not hard to have a theology of total depravity of humans when you are accustomed to treating them like animals.
I disagree. I think their views on slavery are well-known and plenty has been written about their failure on this area. Also, this is kind of “shooting the messenger.” You still have to decide if total depravity is taught in the Bible. I think it is.
Well I think the people you mentioned in your list above have written a lot and preached many sermons. I just prefer people who have endured suffering and come out with a broader more beautiful view of God. I find Julien’s life beautiful, but I can’t say the same for your list of Calvinists. Just my opinion
The article was about some ways I think the evangelical church could be fruitful in the future. I still don’t know what your argument is? My post is not about violence or slavery or about historical figures. It is about a future where I think Calvinism, liturgy, discipleship, and charismatic worship is needed. Just curious what you don’t like?
So your argument is what? Calvinism isn’t true because you don’t like some of the men who are Calvinists? Or you don’t like the examples? I used Edwards and Whitfield not to say they are perfect but because they were part of the Great Awakening. What are you arguing against ?
That’s fine - not sure why those two are the ones that come to mind for you. Use these instead: Augustine, Calvin, Samuel Rutherford, John Owen, Thomas Watson, Charles Spurgeon, George Mueller, Martyn Lloyd Jones, BB Wakefield, Charles Hodges, John Murray, JI Packer, Tim Keller. There are many more well-known Calvinists as well, that’s just a sampling
As a pastor I definitely try to implement a balanced approach. Another problem with the American Church that I have found is that most people want a savior but they do not want a Lord. We stop at the transactional part of salvation and do not enter into the transformational submission of Lordship. Obedience is not optional for believers and we have failed to convey that in our discipleship. Thanks for this piece.
I havent even read it yet but I already love the title. I am so frustrated with denomonational pigeonholing of the Christian experience. We need to be all these things.
Dennis, thanks for sharing your vision. I think you’re right in many ways here. However, I think your vision for the Christian liturgy is weak. Are you familiar with James Jordan? I would commend his work to you, especially with regard to the liturgy.
Thanks Isaac. I will definitely look more deeply into his work. I think I heard him on the Theopolis podcast before. I agree I probably could have written more about liturgy.
Jordan founded Biblical Horizons, where Peter Leithart got involved. Leithart and others have continued Jordan’s project with Theopolis, so you’re probably familiar with his work through some of his disciples if you follow Theopolis.
Excellent piece, Dennis. Your title sucked me in, because of course, I'm with you. I read the whole thing and was shocked to see my name at the end. Ha. Thanks for the mention. I'm not exactly a Calvinist, but besides that (and, honestly, including most of that) this all resonates deeply. Glad to have more brothers thinking and praying through the future of our churches.
I would add, even as a non-Catholic myself, that the movement needs to be Sacramental. We evangelicals have such a low view of the Eucharist, and have never really prioritized confession. Just those two things alone would breath such life into Evangelicalism.
And, above all, the movement needs to be Sacrificial. The coopting of Christianity for political interests has causes outsiders to view American Christians merely as a voting bloc. Overcoming this will require that we lay ourselves, our quest for power and control, and our even our claim to whatever rights we have, down, so long as these things hinder our witness.
I really like your comment. I think that the root issue underlying our need for the charismatic is really a need to live an "enchanted world" which requires sacramentalism as well.
Just read it and I couldnt agree more. Shallow Christianity isnt going to cut it. We need churches that produce disciples not consumers.
Wonderful article. I'm not Reformed, though I agree with the aspect of Reformed theology this article highlighted, and all the rest of this is spot on. Though I wonder what a "liturgical, Charismatic" Baptist would look like, LOL.
Oh no, please , don't do it. The first one was terrible enough
I really like your 4 category breakdown!
You might resonate with much of my work. Relating to this article, see https://phillipaross.substack.com/p/the-heritage-of-st-pauls-evangelical
I hear pastors constantly praising and quoting Whitfield and Edwards without ever noting that they both owned slaves and Whitefield advocated for the practice. It’s not hard to have a theology of total depravity of humans when you are accustomed to treating them like animals.
I disagree. I think their views on slavery are well-known and plenty has been written about their failure on this area. Also, this is kind of “shooting the messenger.” You still have to decide if total depravity is taught in the Bible. I think it is.
I’m talking about violence and slavery, not that they said something that hurt my feelings.
You can have your people though. I’ll take Julien of Norwich, Therese of Lisieux, and Meister Eckhart.
So it seems as though you like the Mystics? We might have some overlap in our thinking.
Well I think the people you mentioned in your list above have written a lot and preached many sermons. I just prefer people who have endured suffering and come out with a broader more beautiful view of God. I find Julien’s life beautiful, but I can’t say the same for your list of Calvinists. Just my opinion
The article was about some ways I think the evangelical church could be fruitful in the future. I still don’t know what your argument is? My post is not about violence or slavery or about historical figures. It is about a future where I think Calvinism, liturgy, discipleship, and charismatic worship is needed. Just curious what you don’t like?
Calvin had heretics executed, exiled, and imprisoned. Again, nothing like Jesus.
And I mentioned those two because you cited them as examples in your article
So your argument is what? Calvinism isn’t true because you don’t like some of the men who are Calvinists? Or you don’t like the examples? I used Edwards and Whitfield not to say they are perfect but because they were part of the Great Awakening. What are you arguing against ?
I think we should look for other messengers when the pattern of failure is this far from the way of Jesus. There are plenty available
That’s fine - not sure why those two are the ones that come to mind for you. Use these instead: Augustine, Calvin, Samuel Rutherford, John Owen, Thomas Watson, Charles Spurgeon, George Mueller, Martyn Lloyd Jones, BB Wakefield, Charles Hodges, John Murray, JI Packer, Tim Keller. There are many more well-known Calvinists as well, that’s just a sampling
“Leaving the rest to God” Is what Calvinist ppl would say to me when I ask why God would resign billions of non-elect to eternal torment.
As a pastor I definitely try to implement a balanced approach. Another problem with the American Church that I have found is that most people want a savior but they do not want a Lord. We stop at the transactional part of salvation and do not enter into the transformational submission of Lordship. Obedience is not optional for believers and we have failed to convey that in our discipleship. Thanks for this piece.
I havent even read it yet but I already love the title. I am so frustrated with denomonational pigeonholing of the Christian experience. We need to be all these things.
Dennis, thanks for sharing your vision. I think you’re right in many ways here. However, I think your vision for the Christian liturgy is weak. Are you familiar with James Jordan? I would commend his work to you, especially with regard to the liturgy.
Thanks Isaac. I will definitely look more deeply into his work. I think I heard him on the Theopolis podcast before. I agree I probably could have written more about liturgy.
Jordan founded Biblical Horizons, where Peter Leithart got involved. Leithart and others have continued Jordan’s project with Theopolis, so you’re probably familiar with his work through some of his disciples if you follow Theopolis.